Great to see if officially released thanks for reposting.

My quick 2 cents on it - my apologies if I'm repeating some points mentioned in the previous thread:

Kim is a good player - regardless of which race he plays, he micros rather well, seems to recover well (aka multitasks with constantly pumping out units even while he attacks), and in general simply outplays his opponents (through superior numbers, better match ups unit-wise, etc).

Zerg were outplayed this round (much as BR2, although differently). So, before outcries of "balance please" settle in, note that even when Kim had a good chunk of his probes demolished by baneling attack (and even then he managed to save a rather large number of them), the announcers mentioned he *still* had significantly more drones than his opponent. Kim consistently is able to amass superior funds, and with it, more units.

Banelings will be awesome come triggerable explosions (no warning, boom). even without the triggered ability we saw them wreak havoc on all types of units.

Phoe + Void ray combo...nice early game harassment, specifically against Zerg (queen is the first real AA unit they can get without teching/investing into hydras). I would be interested to see how more Phoes would be able to work together. Hell, in general I'd like to see more Air to Air battles to see how they perform.

Neural Parasite = sexy...I'll curse it out so bad when it happens to me, but I'm much happier for this limited MC over the instant-kill + 2 broodlings the queen used to have, as well as the *un*limited MC of the old archon. Infestors look really cool functionality wise...can't wait to see the new art in action (although I really don't mind the weird pear-shape myself).

I'll post more opinions if I think of'em

Jaydin wrote:Banelings will be awesome come triggerable explosions (no warning, boom). even without the triggered ability we saw them wreak havoc on all types of units.

What's this about? I haven't heard about any triggerable explosion ability for the Baneling. I don't really see the use, though.

Idomis wrote:

Jaydin wrote:Banelings will be awesome come triggerable explosions (no warning, boom). even without the triggered ability we saw them wreak havoc on all types of units.

What's this about? I haven't heard about any triggerable explosion ability for the Baneling. I don't really see the use, though.

I'ts very useful actually. It will allow a player to target specific units/buildings without the baneling blowing up. For example, the old baneling would blow up if I ran an SCV into it, now it will not unless the player chooses to blow up the SCV. Meaning I can now by pass a single SCV and target a larger group of miners, because I can "choose" what will detonate my baneling.

I find it extremely useful.

Idomis wrote:

Jaydin wrote:Banelings will be awesome come triggerable explosions (no warning, boom). even without the triggered ability we saw them wreak havoc on all types of units.

What's this about? I haven't heard about any triggerable explosion ability for the Baneling.

Yup, a while ago Karune said that you can use a hotkey to explode the selected Baneling(s), even when burrowed.

force field looks heinous

Tiger0211 wrote:

Idomis wrote:

Jaydin wrote:Banelings will be awesome come triggerable explosions (no warning, boom). even without the triggered ability we saw them wreak havoc on all types of units.

What's this about? I haven't heard about any triggerable explosion ability for the Baneling.

Yup, a while ago Karune said that you can use a hotkey to explode the selected Baneling(s), even when burrowed.

Nerdgasm. Now I don't have to worry about the animation delay. I suppose the damage I lose I make up for in not allowing any units to escape my MINE FIELD OF ACIDIC DEATH.

Forget Bouncing Bettys. Welcome to the future.

.. On a side note, Banelings being so thick in the bottom, would it be inaccurate to start referring to it as an "assplosion?"

F[5]hOtShOt wrote:force field looks heinous

I'm sure it already has a different look. Notice that the Disruptor is still a Nullifier in this BR, and the ability icons look like they were drawn in MS Paint.

looks like that the design team put david kim to demostrate the power and the diversity of the race who he control it in each battle report.... well for some reason the major time of the BRs is focus in his game ...i expect that the next BR david kim control a zerg race ..

Idomis wrote:.. On a side note, Banelings being so thick in the bottom, would it be inaccurate to start referring to it as an "assplosion?"

another reason to stay away from Banelings! And also another reason why I love them.

I liked the new map, and the match was good as well highlighting many of the early game strengths of both races.

Backing up the micro of Kim, the commentators didn't mention the use of the obelisk special abilities on his probes, which may have helped him a great deal in the mineral area, especially since he only ever had 2 bases while his opponent managed to get to three before he was defeated. Also as mentioned before, near flawless use of force field, blink and his other micro abilities turned the tide in his favor despite heavy losses to banelings and nueral parasite. The use of it on those colossi was epic by the way . . .

Not to disrespect Lee, who managed to fend off the protoss for the majority of the match. While the protoss had hardly gotten into the zerg main base by the end, the zerg had made multiple trips to the toss base, even if they incurred losses once there to the aforesaid micro. Lee was able to accomplish this with very few units & tech--using primarily zerglings, banelings & roaches for the majority. This lack of options is one thing which left him vulnerable in the end as he couldn't defeat the multiple weapons Kim had at his command with most of the middle tech and some higher tech.

Ok something I noticed, just afetr the third hatchery is destroyed they select something called a mantaling (at about 16:26 in vid) is this some sort of broodling? cause it kinda looks like some kind of upgraded drone.

salvatore25 wrote:Ok something I noticed, just afetr the third hatchery is destroyed they select something called a mantaling (at about 16:26 in vid) is this some sort of broodling? cause it kinda looks like some kind of upgraded drone.

Well, we do know that Zerg buildings are supposed to spawn a few Broodlings when destroyed. And this "Mantaling" had the portrait of a Zergling, so it's obviously not a very developed unit. So as I see it, it's either:

1. The "Mantaling" was the original idea for what happens after the building is destroyed. Afterwards they figured to just use plain old Broodlings instead.
2. The Mantaling was developed AFTER they mentioned broodlings being spawned, and this is the newer version.

2 seems unlikely because it would be a bit of a waste (imo) to develop another unit that is just like a broodling, and has a limited life.

Tomer wrote:2 seems unlikely because it would be a bit of a waste (imo) to develop another unit that is just like a broodling, and has a limited life.

Counter-argument: Swarm Guardian -> Brood Lord
Same unit, three slightly different stats. They even went back to the SC:BW model, which makes little sense as the Brood Lord is more like a Guardian than the Swarm Guardian.

aye - whatever the name of the unit, the mantaling as seen in the video was spawned on zerg building destruction. these are timed melee units (i.e. good reason to keep squishy marines at range while razing buildings).

Idomis wrote:

Tomer wrote:2 seems unlikely because it would be a bit of a waste (imo) to develop another unit that is just like a broodling, and has a limited life.

Counter-argument: Swarm Guardian -> Brood Lord
Same unit, three slightly different stats. They even went back to the SC:BW model, which makes little sense as the Brood Lord is more like a Guardian than the Swarm Guardian.

Yeah, what I meant was that maybe they thought of having 2 different types of Broodlings. The ones from the Brood Lord's attack, and ones that spawn when buildings die ("Mantalings"). That scenario would seem unlikely, since they're basically the same, insignificant unit, so having 2 different versions would be a waste of time. Unless they decided that the mantalings would actually be different from the broodlings.

I'm not saying that making a new unit completely is a waste of time, when it comes to major units. So the Swarm Guardian -> Brood Lord change, Nomad -> Nighthawk -> Raven change, and such makes sense because these units affect the feel and balance of the game. But making a broodling and a "slighty different broodling" seems redundant.

zerg could have done so much better. he should have used hydras and mutalisks

chaosmaster3100 wrote:zerg could have done so much better. he should have used hydras and mutalisks

and the toss should have better like use the observer ^^

Did no one else notice that there were two unit buttons on the nexus?

Edit: Or is that something else and I'm stupid...

Edit Again:Ahh!

It makes the Mothership, okay I didn't know that before.

Tomer wrote:

Idomis wrote:

Tomer wrote:2 seems unlikely because it would be a bit of a waste (imo) to develop another unit that is just like a broodling, and has a limited life.

Counter-argument: Swarm Guardian -> Brood Lord
Same unit, three slightly different stats. They even went back to the SC:BW model, which makes little sense as the Brood Lord is more like a Guardian than the Swarm Guardian.

Yeah, what I meant was that maybe they thought of having 2 different types of Broodlings. The ones from the Brood Lord's attack, and ones that spawn when buildings die ("Mantalings"). That scenario would seem unlikely, since they're basically the same, insignificant unit, so having 2 different versions would be a waste of time. Unless they decided that the mantalings would actually be different from the broodlings.

I'm not saying that making a new unit completely is a waste of time, when it comes to major units. So the Swarm Guardian -> Brood Lord change, Nomad -> Nighthawk -> Raven change, and such makes sense because these units affect the feel and balance of the game. But making a broodling and a "slighty different broodling" seems redundant.

I find it logical to have two different units as it will make balancing soo much easier for them. I mean, if they sometime decide that the Broodlings which spawn from the Brood Lord's attack deal too much damage and nerf it, the Broodlings which is spawned from buildings does also get nerfed damage, thus nerfing something that was fine.
Sure they could do other things like change the quantity and such instead of changing the damage but that's a lot more limited than being able to change the unit data freely to get the results they want.

And making another type of broodling should not take long time, maybe 5 to 10 minutes. It's not like they cannot reuse the model but with a slight change of the hue on the textures or another scale.

This is the best Battle Report so far if you ask me. I'm very happy with how the game is coming so far. There is just 1 thing bothering me - The Colossus. It was totally useless in the previous B.Reports (couldn't even kill an SCV). And since it is designed as an anti-zerg unit I don't really see it doing that much when you hit it with a Neural Parasite (which seems to be a lower-tier tech than the Colossus himself)

So... WHAT is the point of wasting tons of resourses on slow,weak and mind controllable (in 1 word - useless) units like the Colossi? Discuss please...

PiF wrote:This is the best Battle Report so far if you ask me. I'm very happy with how the game is coming so far. There is just 1 thing bothering me - The Colossus. It was totally useless in the previous B.Reports (couldn't even kill an SCV). And since it is designed as an anti-zerg unit I don't really see it doing that much when you hit it with a Neural Parasite (which seems to be a lower-tier tech than the Colossus himself)

So... WHAT is the point of wasting tons of resourses on slow,weak and mind controllable (in 1 word - useless) units like the Colossi? Discuss please...

Oneshotting AUDIE's marines?

Collossi don't seem all that slow, nor weak, and every unit is MC'able. The MC lasts 10 seconds...the fact that the zealots and company were obliterated in those 10 seconds demonstrates how deadly those guys are. Sure, they got overwhelmed when all the zerg were stacked on top of them after they lost MC, but that shouldn't reflect poorly on the unit itself (imo).

all kim would have needed to maintain his collossi superiority would have been to make an observer. observer = dead infestor = no mc (or limited MC at least)

Yeah, even though Blizz says they pick the battle reports from the dozens of matches their test team plays, I still gotta think some parts of this BR were "staged" to show off units and abilities.
The Phoenix/Void Ray was one example, and Kim "forgetting" to get observers was another. I mean, the Zerg already fought off 1 attack with Neural Parasite, and Kim still didn't get any observers (even though he already had a Robotics Facility). Those Colossi just got the short end of the stick, since I guess Blizz wanted to show the effectiveness of the Infestor rather than the power of the Colossus.

Quote:Yeah, even though Blizz says they pick the battle reports from the dozens of matches their test team plays, I still gotta think some parts of this BR were "staged" to show off units and abilities.
The Phoenix/Void Ray was one example, and Kim "forgetting" to get observers was another. I mean, the Zerg already fought off 1 attack with Neural Parasite, and Kim still didn't get any observers (even though he already had a Robotics Facility). Those Colossi just got the short end of the stick, since I guess Blizz wanted to show the effectiveness of the Infestor rather than the power of the Colossus.

I have to agree with you on this one, some parts are staged (or tweaked if you will). Blizzard doesn't want to show us things which aren't ready, so they probably edit/screen the battle reports for current secrets or simply remove them from the build, since the infestor hasn't been shown on any battle reports thus far they probably wanted to show their effectiveness--especially since all the flak they have gotten for the concept art/model--if observers had been used that would have defeated the purpose, and toss squished the buggers anyway so it's all good

PiF wrote:This is the best Battle Report so far if you ask me. I'm very happy with how the game is coming so far. There is just 1 thing bothering me - The Colossus. It was totally useless in the previous B.Reports (couldn't even kill an SCV). And since it is designed as an anti-zerg unit I don't really see it doing that much when you hit it with a Neural Parasite (which seems to be a lower-tier tech than the Colossus himself)

They also buffed the Colossus considerably since BR1, so your argument that it stunk before, so it must be anti-Zerg doesn't hold up now. Additionally, unless they've changed the tech tree radically, Infestors (and by extension Neural Parasite) are far and away T3. Hive + Building = T3. Conversely, the Colossus is really more T2.5.

salvatore25 wrote:since the infestor hasn't been shown on any battle reports thus far they probably wanted to show their effectiveness--especially since all the flak they have gotten for the concept art/model

I believe the Infestor made a cameo in BR2. I don't think it did anything useful, though. And they still haven't shown us the new art in serious action (not that there would be a whole lot to see). We have the muddy screenshot now in the Wiki, but it's very low-res.

Eh...I don't think it's staged, I'm inclined to believe the ones putting out the info over some fans speculating. There's a few reasons why:
David Kim has won all three of the BRs. He must be better than the other team members.
Everyone that plays is constantly readjusting to the new units, abilities, and strategies as SC2 progresses, and they're not #1 in the world of SC to begin with, (though some are pros) so you'll see blunders like the lack of observers more often than you might in SC:BW pro matches. (Plus, if you've ever played DotA in public games when a new hero comes out you'll know what I mean when I say: people like trying new things, whether they're good or not, and whether they have the proper experience to successfully use that strategy or not)
Blizz intentionally selects matches that have a bit of back-and-forth instead of just a stomping. Events that could cause a back-and-forth entertaining enough are probably more often than not blunders.
Blizz has not, AFAIK, (besides April 1) lied or tweaked the truth to fit their purposes (hence the "when it's ready"/"Soon™" instead of constantly putting out dates as official that turn out to be unrealistically optimistic guesses). Why would they start "tweaking the truth" with BRs?

Tiger0211 wrote:Why would they start "tweaking the truth" with BRs?

To keep the Zerg man down.

More realistic answer: Marketing.
But then the question becomes, "Why did they not show off many new units?" Wouldn't that have been a bigger selling point than Roaches/Lings again? I think you have Occam's Gillette Mach 3 on your side, Tiger.

Idomis wrote:I believe the Infestor made a cameo in BR2. I don't think it did anything useful, though. And they still haven't shown us the new art in serious action (not that there would be a whole lot to see). We have the muddy screenshot now in the Wiki, but it's very low-res.

aye - it was created, spawned infested terrans, then got zapped while it was burrowed by the nighthawks

PiF wrote:This is the best Battle Report so far if you ask me. I'm very happy with how the game is coming so far. There is just 1 thing bothering me - The Colossus. It was totally useless in the previous B.Reports (couldn't even kill an SCV). And since it is designed as an anti-zerg unit I don't really see it doing that much when you hit it with a Neural Parasite (which seems to be a lower-tier tech than the Colossus himself)

So... WHAT is the point of wasting tons of resourses on slow,weak and mind controllable (in 1 word - useless) units like the Colossi? Discuss please...

For the LULZ, of course.

didnt they change the look of the infestors from the bettle look to the sort of reaver look

trevorhatley wrote:didnt they change the look of the infestors from the bettle look to the sort of reaver look

yes they did but this isnt the last build of sc2

Undifty wrote:

PiF wrote:This is the best Battle Report so far if you ask me. I'm very happy with how the game is coming so far. There is just 1 thing bothering me - The Colossus. It was totally useless in the previous B.Reports (couldn't even kill an SCV). And since it is designed as an anti-zerg unit I don't really see it doing that much when you hit it with a Neural Parasite (which seems to be a lower-tier tech than the Colossus himself)

So... WHAT is the point of wasting tons of resourses on slow,weak and mind controllable (in 1 word - useless) units like the Colossi? Discuss please...

Oneshotting AUDIE's marines?

Har har har, funny man. I'm glad to see the Colossus is much more powerful, but Cavez has stated in a blue that they are working on the zerg mind control thing and big units like the colossus. Maybe a shorter duration of control than normal units? Either way, it is an issue that they are addressing.

I watched BR3 in HD this time and I am really worried about the balance of the protoss. The protoss only had 7 more miners and they were bringing in double the resources due to the dark pylon ability. So the protoss became pretty much like the zerg. They were able to mass and still have the most powerful units in the game. I think if Kim didn't have that dark pylon, he'd probably lost, but I think this is an issue when protoss can out mass zerg.

AUDIE wrote:Har har har, funny man. I'm glad to see the Colossus is much more powerful, but Cavez has stated in a blue that they are working on the zerg mind control thing and big units like the colossus. Maybe a shorter duration of control than normal units? Either way, it is an issue that they are addressing.

Pretty much like the Resistant Skin ability and heroes resistance versus abilities in War3, should be simple to make.. As they already have a "Massive" unit type..

Undifty wrote:Pretty much like the Resistant Skin ability and heroes resistance versus abilities in War3, should be simple to make.. As they already have a "Massive" unit type..

Yeah, and some abilities don't work at all against Massive units (Graviton Beam), so it's obviously something they have considered.

Pardon for posting two posts in a row, but I am too lazy to edit the above one.

AUDIE wrote:I watched BR3 in HD this time and I am really worried about the balance of the protoss. The protoss only had 7 more miners and they were bringing in double the resources due to the dark pylon ability. So the protoss became pretty much like the zerg. They were able to mass and still have the most powerful units in the game. I think if Kim didn't have that dark pylon, he'd probably lost, but I think this is an issue when protoss can out mass zerg.

The Dark Pylon ability increases the minerals returned by the affected workers by 20%, which is indeed quite a lot- but I think you've been judging the Dark Pylon too quicky.. After all the Zerg was behind economically ever since the Probe was blocking that Hatchery, and with that advantage the Protoss player could easily spend some extra resources on Dark Pylons, instead of teching up or producing units, to gain some additional minerals in the long run. Imagine if the Zerg had gotten off that hatchery at the start without interruption- the Zerg would probably have had better economy than the Protoss, even though the Protoss had Dark Pylons.

I know, it's a lot of "IF"s, but I definitely want to see more of the Dark Pylon before I say it's overpowered, fine or useless.

Undifty wrote:Pardon for posting two posts in a row, but I am too lazy to edit the above one.

AUDIE wrote:I watched BR3 in HD this time and I am really worried about the balance of the protoss. The protoss only had 7 more miners and they were bringing in double the resources due to the dark pylon ability. So the protoss became pretty much like the zerg. They were able to mass and still have the most powerful units in the game. I think if Kim didn't have that dark pylon, he'd probably lost, but I think this is an issue when protoss can out mass zerg.

The Dark Pylon ability increases the minerals returned by the affected workers by 20%, which is indeed quite a lot- but I think you've been judging the Dark Pylon too quicky.. After all the Zerg was behind economically ever since the Probe was blocking that Hatchery, and with that advantage the Protoss player could easily spend some extra resources on Dark Pylons, instead of teching up or producing units, to gain some additional minerals in the long run. Imagine if the Zerg had gotten off that hatchery at the start without interruption- the Zerg would probably have had better economy than the Protoss, even though the Protoss had Dark Pylons.

I know, it's a lot of "IF"s, but I definitely want to see more of the Dark Pylon before I say it's overpowered, fine or useless.

I agree, we need to see more of it and it wasn't the dark pylon that made the zerg lose. I should really restate that statement. I just feel that if we have the same amount of miners and you get double the resources, that could be an issue.

Still we need to the balance factor come into it.

also keep in mind, that "7 more" count occurred *after* the baneling attack...I haven't analyzed the br, but i thought he lost a number of probes (although obviously saving a decent chunk of them)

And one thing I also forgot to point out: It wasn't only one Dark Pylon either, he had at least two. And keep in mind that the Protoss player has to manually use the Dark Pylons, thus spending time on doing additional macro.

Lol, there seems to be a duplicate discussion of the "power" of the Obelisk (formerly Dark Pylon) in 2 threads.
Instead of repeating myself, I'll link to what I said there.

The gist of it is that the 20% gathering increase from the Obelisk shouldn't be hard for a zerg player to make up for.

Tomer wrote:Lol, there seems to be a duplicate discussion of the "power" of the Obelisk (formerly Dark Pylon) in 2 threads.
Instead of repeating myself, I'll link to what I said there.

The gist of it is that the 20% gathering increase from the Obelisk shouldn't be hard for a zerg player to make up for.

At the risk of derailing the topic, I'm going to respond to you.

The problem is that over time, the Protoss receives the mineral advantage. There is a maximum number of effective workers for any base to have. Maybe it's 2/node, 3/node, or something in between. Once you reach this point, the Zerg's ability to produce 7 Drones becomes worthless, while the protoss can keep getting a 20% mining buff. At max capacity (say 20 drones), a Zerg base can function at 100% mineral intake. At max capacity (20 probes), a Protoss base can function at 120% mineral intake.

Furthermore, the Zerg mechanic doesn't allow the Zerg to get an early lead in workers. They'd have to save up enough minerals for 7 Drones, which could just as easily be made using 7 successively spawned larvae, especially since you don't want to be mining on low worker numbers just to pop out 7 at once. Furthermore, Maynard transfers make popping out 7 workers at once for new bases worthless for Zerg. If you have extra larvae to leave sitting around in preparation for a new base, you might as well produce them now and mine locally until transfer time. More likely though, you're using those larvae intelligently to produce a balance of combat units and necessary future workers. Zerg hurts itself by saving larvae for a big push/transfer.

The only thing I'd say the extra 4 larvae are good for is quicker post-battle regeneration of units. And T&P already have those in the forms of Reactors and Warp-In. So super. Zerg's one advantage of being able to pump out tons of units simultaneously was countered by Reactors and Warp-In. Then we counter-countered with Spawn Larvae, but that left us with no macro mechanic.

BW Zerg: Characterized (in part) by fast unit production (remember, this is part of the balance). Zerg +/- = 0.
Early SC2 Zerg: Other races get fast-production. Zerg +/- = -1.
SC2 Zerg with Spawn Larvae: Zerg gets even faster unit production. Zerg +/- = 0.
SC2 Zerg with other races' Macro mechanics: Zerg has slower mining. Zerg +/0 = -1.

Conclusion: Giving Zerg Spawn Larvae only helps Zerg overcome Warp-In/Reactors.

Now, with all that talk, remember, the average speed can save you some minerals later on, if you mine too fast, a la Obelisk, the entire point of having a speed upgrade is to get rid of minerals fast. Since zerg swarm, they have cheap units, so they dont need max money, when protoss, for some force mined areas, can build their army, at the price of no more extra money guarded in the back of the base. All this enables toss is they got their army, and can now leave the area. But with no more minerals at the area, all of your buildings stay there, so now expansions are then sorely needed, and zerg can relocate there defenses to an expansion, while protoss waste money in the long run.
So really, there is no balancing issues even apparent to me.

I agree that the obelisk mechanism does favor an early game mineral advantage. But overall, between losing track of triggering the proton charge on cd, and having more costly units, ideally the zerg should be capable of chugging out more workers in the long run. In addition, keep in mind the queen's ability can also simply generate additional larva to supplement the existing larva supply...you can generate up to 4 additional (7 total) and they'll stay there until you've dropped back down to 3. you don't necessarily have to save up for 4 or 7 drones, but can use them as you have the cash for'em (i.e. especially when you're low on larva)

I would say the obelisk favors early game, terrans favor mid game, and queens favor mid-to-late game (due to units not limited to gathering)

edit: just looked again at the br - kim lost at *least* 10 probes...if not significantly more (they stack pretty well). this means that he had at least 17 more probes than the zerg had drones for a long while before the baneling raid. I think it again comes down to our zerg players not keeping up with their workers as well as kim.

I think protolisk and Jaydin both neglect to see that adding any resource macro mechanic at all (and in this case to 2/3 races) raises the average mineral intake speed. You're speaking as if Proton Charge/MULEs only give you extra minerals now and then, which is true, but what will really happen is that at maximum effective workers, the Protoss will always be pulling in more minerals than the Zerg - for all time - averaged over the course of the game. Even if they miss a lot of Proton Charges, they've stilled mined >100% capacity for some time during the game. Therefore they have more $/time for the duration of the game.

My point is that you can no longer look at the game as being played at a speed equal to what you can do with 100% mineral intake (maximum macro/micro efficiency while at maximum effective workers per base at equal bases). You have to start looking at the game at being played at 101% speed, or 105% speed, or whatever it averages out to over time for T&P. Zerg, however, can't ever top 100% $ intake speed.

Plus, with more minerals, you're more likely to be able to expand. So maximum effective workers per base at equal bases is an exponentially less likely a scenario as the game progresses (and that's math, not hyperbole).

Finally, protolisk, if you think that Zerg is able to uproot their base defenses to relocate to a new base, you are much mistaken. I'm not leaving my tech buildings undefended, thank you. Mobile base defenses are for defending single bases from multiple directions or establishing early defense at new bases. The old defenses, though, must still be replaced, especially considering Warp-In.

Idomis wrote:I think protolisk and Jaydin both neglect to see that adding any resource macro mechanic at all (and in this case to 2/3 races) raises the game speed. You're speaking as if Proton Charge/MULEs only give you extra minerals now and then. What will really happen is that at maximum effective workers, the Protoss will always be pulling in more minerals than the Zerg - for all time. Even if they miss a lot of Proton Charges, they've stilled mined >100% capacity for some time during the game. Therefore they have more $/time for the duration of the game.

My point is that you can no longer look at the game as being played at a speed equal to what you can do with 100% mineral intake (maximum effective workers per base at equal bases). You have to start looking at the game at being played at 101% speed, or 105% speed, or whatever it works out to over time for T&P. Zerg can't ever top 100% $ intake speed.

No, I do see the advantage. I do recognize what you're pointing out. I would also like to point out that thus far in our two zerg BR's *neither* zerg player has come close to matching the shear number of workers that david kim unleashes upon his minerals. As a result, I question the basis for "x is OP" before we can look at it.

I think the misunderstanding lies in what exactly we're looking at. Yes - protoss, per worker, will be capable of generating increased resource gathered per trip per probe per duration of the buff. Yes - terrans will be able to generate increased resource gathered per trip per MULE per duration of the unit (although technically speaking, if there is a limit per node and there is a "cap" on effective mining capabilities, MULES can never be 100% effective at being 100% effective without relocating SCV's to compensate) and Yes - zerg will NOT be able to generate increased resource gathered per drone ever.

However, we're also trying to take into account other factors (cost of zerg units, end game utility) that may make up for the shortcomings that zerg will have when directly compared to the proton charge ability. You seem to be directly comparing one singular variable to one singular variable. We're trying to take a step back and see how additional variables may be capable of balancing that out.

Jaydin wrote:No, I do see the advantage. I do recognize what you're pointing out. I would also like to point out that thus far in our two zerg BR's *neither* zerg player has come close to matching the shear number of workers that david kim unleashes upon his minerals. As a result, I question the basis for "x is OP" before we can look at it.

Whether the two Zerg players matched Kim for workers produced doesn't matter. I don't have to be shown that T&P can always out-resource Zerg at maximum effective workers at equal bases. That's a mathematical fact based on the knowledge of their macro mechanics. If Zerg was given something of equal value (not necessarily of equal function) in return, I wouldn't have such a problem with it. Unfortunately, as I pointed out with my +/- examples, one doesn't exist thanks to new T&P mechanics.

Jaydin wrote:I think the misunderstanding lies in what exactly we're looking at. Yes - protoss, per worker, will be capable of generating increased resource gathered per trip per probe per duration of the buff. Yes - terrans will be able to generate increased resource gathered per trip per MULE per duration of the unit (although technically speaking, if there is a limit per node and there is a "cap" on effective mining capabilities, MULES can never be 100% effective at being 100% effective without relocating SCV's to compensate) and Yes - zerg will NOT be able to generate increased resource gathered per drone ever.

However, we're also trying to take into account other factors (cost of zerg units, end game utility) that may make up for the shortcomings that zerg will have when directly compared to the proton charge ability. You seem to be directly comparing one singular variable to one singular variable. We're trying to take a step back and see how additional variables may be capable of balancing that out.

You're right that I'm only including one variable. I obviously can't compare ALL variables involved, but I think I can quell further argument by pointing out that being weaker at mineral intake begins the descent down a very slippery slope where you cannot make up ground (due to there being a maximum effective workers per base). So unless they make the Zerg T3 units ridiculously powerful, the fact that you'll have waaaahaaay less assets at endgame equals a serious Zerg weakness.

I'll also admit that we only have part of the picture here. SC2 certainly isn't perfected yet (and won't be for many post-release patches).

First, let me say that even I think that Zerg looks pretty weak right now. But still, I'll try to adress some of Idomis' points, since I do think the Zerg aren't as disadvantaged as you might think.

1. There definitely is a maximum number of effective workers per base. But, imagine that a zerg player and a protoss player both expand simultaneously. A zerg player could reach that magic number waaay faster with a queen or 2 giving him an additional 4-8 drones right away. He gains a huge advantage while the protoss player has to slowly build probes 1 by 1, or send them across the map (i'm talking about ealry expands here, not later one when you can "exodus" 20 probes to a new base). A zerg player could quickly outexpand his opponent if each expansion is "up and running" so much faster.

2. Getting minerals faster from a "maximum" gathering base is good, but it also means that it'll run dry faster. This isn't necessarily bad, but could force a protoss player to expand more often than they'd like. Considering that Zerg still have the best mobility in the game (in theory anyway), this is advantageous to them.

3. Since drones have to be used up in building production anyway, there is a minor advantage to having more workers, rather than more efficient workers, since you have to constantly use them up anyway.

4. Warp Gates and Reactors have pretty big limitations, whereas larvae dont. Reactors only allow you to produce basic units from the barracks, factory, or starport, and limit your reasearching upgrades and abilities (and even then, you're just producing 2 units simultaneously). With the larvae you can build whatever you want. Warp Gates have a cool down after each warp-in, so you get the unit now but have to wait just as long for the next one. And again, this is only for infantry units, not anything higher-tech.

But the question I have is...if you're main concern is with having maximum income per worker, at what point does having more workers break even? or surpass? You're taking the one example of max workers per node. It seems unfair to claim that we're neglecting taking your point into account when you're equally dismissing the potential of simply having more workers. I understand, there is a cap where workers hit capacity the protoss and arguably the terrans will hands-down surpass the income generated from a max capacity hatchery, but how often is this cap hit (especially precisely). I would assume that even among pros that there is some degree of estimation when dealing with how many workers each base should have, etc. I could be mistaken, however...I only recently began watching competitive SC:BW matches.

Tomer wrote:1. There definitely is a maximum number of effective workers per base. But, imagine that a zerg player and a protoss player both expand simultaneously. A zerg player could reach that magic number waaay faster with a queen or 2 giving him an additional 4-8 drones right away. He gains a huge advantage while the protoss player has to slowly build probes 1 by 1, or send them across the map (i'm talking about ealry expands here, not later one when you can "exodus" 20 probes to a new base). A zerg player could quickly outexpand his opponent if each expansion is "up and running" so much faster.

2. Getting minerals faster from a "maximum" gathering base is good, but it also means that it'll run dry faster. This isn't necessarily bad, but could force a protoss player to expand more often than they'd like. Considering that Zerg still have the best mobility in the game (in theory anyway), this is advantageous to them.

Another problem I've considered is that to remain competitive versus Protoss, Zerg has to remain at +1 bases (see SC:BW). Throw in Proton Charge and the Zerg's +1 base advantage (WHICH EQUALIZES THE FORCES, resulting in 0 +/-) is lessened. Protoss expanding again means Zerg has to expand again. Luckily the costs of expanding are about equal across all races, so we won't cite any single minor mechanic/cost as a serious advantage here.

Tomer wrote:3. Since drones have to be used up in building production anyway, there is a minor advantage to having more workers, rather than more efficient workers, since you have to constantly use them up anyway.

There is actually a disadvantage to building drones in advance. Technically, you should build a drone just in time to use it to make a building. If you sit on extra drones mining, you've invested minerals on no return for the time they spend sitting (since they can't mine more minerals than maximum efficiency). Otherwise, you could be building extra Zerglings, etc. One/two extra drones probably won't hurt you in any reasonable game, but you don't use them regularly enough to warrant even having over the maximum efficient number.

Tomer wrote:4. Warp Gates and Reactors have pretty big limitations, whereas larvae dont. Reactors only allow you to produce basic units from the barracks, factory, or starport, and limit your reasearching upgrades and abilities (and even then, you're just producing 2 units simultaneously). With the larvae you can build whatever you want. Warp Gates have a cool down after each warp-in, so you get the unit now but have to wait just as long for the next one. And again, this is only for infantry units, not anything higher-tech.

Spawn Larvae is mitigated heavily by the availability of resources. +4 Larvae is worthless if you aren't sitting on enough minerals. Similar limitations exist for Warp-In (cooldown) and Reactors (same as Zerg, actually). It's no advantage for Zerg to be able to produce 7 Ultras at once, as in ideal conditions (what we plan and theorycraft for), you've efficiently used all your minerals already.

Here's where I get to offer the thoughts I considered on my way home from work and transition from the previous point on mineral efficiency.

I tried to think of how Spawn Larvae could be considered a macro ability and I came up with one thought. The only way it works as such is if you consider having to build less Hatcheries a macro advantage. A single Spawn Larvae is worth 1.33 full-larvae Hatcheries at that moment. So if you can use the ability every time you need to mass produce, you've saved yourself 350 minerals. I won't include the Hatchery build time because they are produced in advance of your need for their units.

But is the -350 minerals over time per Hatchery useful? I'm not sure. Extra Hatcheries equate to much higher base resilience. See Yellow vs. Sonkie SC2 for evidence of the Hatchery's usefulness as a base blocker. Also, having at least one Hatchery stay up means quicker recovery after an attack that kills some Hatcheries.

Jaydin wrote:But the question I have is...if you're main concern is with having maximum income per worker, at what point does having more workers break even? or surpass? You're taking the one example of max workers per node. It seems unfair to claim that we're neglecting taking your point into account when you're equally dismissing the potential of simply having more workers. I understand, there is a cap where workers hit capacity the protoss and arguably the terrans will hands-down surpass the income generated from a max capacity hatchery, but how often is this cap hit (especially precisely). I would assume that even among pros that there is some degree of estimation when dealing with how many workers each base should have, etc. I could be mistaken, however...I only recently began watching competitive SC:BW matches.

This cap will be hit MUCH more often in SC2 thanks to the post-game report
The Resources/Time graph will tell you EXACTLY when you hit the cap. Once its known, your point is moot.
Furthermore, there is a huge disadvantage in having extra workers (see above) which is exacerbated over time, even for Zerg (who can more easily mitigate this avoidable, undesirable situation than the other races).

I won't rehash too many points, but having 1 extra zerg expansion is way more beneficial than an Obelisk, because you gain extra gas, defintely more than 20% of base's worth of minerals, and a new production building.

The other main thing about larvaes is that it's so much more versatile than the Obelisk/Mule/Reactor/Warp Gate alternatives. You don't need to decide to specialize in gathering or producing military units, you can do both.

Also, in a big game, if you have 3 or 4 bases gathering at the same time (which is the norm in pro games), you definitely could take advantage of 7 larvae at the same time, even with Ultralisks, Brood Lords, etc. That's why you see people build 10-12 gateways or factories.

spawn larva dont be consider a quickly increase resources harvesting mechanic because the zergs need mineral and population for the drones from the larvas spawned unlike terrans and toss who just need energy from this orbital command or obelisk and none supply use for that....i think the right use for spawn larva is for harrasment and push up your army.

Jaydin wrote:Yes - terrans will be able to generate increased resource gathered per trip per MULE per duration of the unit (although technically speaking, if there is a limit per node and there is a "cap" on effective mining capabilities, MULES can never be 100% effective at being 100% effective without relocating SCV's to compensate)

Actually...

Cydra wrote:MULEs can mine a mineral field with a SCV simultaneously.

I think it was due purely to player's ability and strategy (or lack thereof) that Kim had more Probes than the Zerg had Drones. The Queen's ability means that he can produce a lot more Drones, and the fact that the Protoss had even more probes means that the Zerg wasn't running into any max effective workers. He could have used more Drones, but he didn't make them.

Tomer wrote:With the larvae you can build whatever you want.

I think this is an important, but oft-overlooked point. Even if the Spawn Larva mechanic isn't quite as good at mineral harvesting than the other race's new macro mechanics, you can do whatever you want with the larvae. It's not Spawn Drones, it's Spawn Larva. Even if you make Drones with it, you can put them on vespene gas harvesting instead of minerals if you so choose. With Proton Charge, only minerals harvesting is helped. MULEs can only harvest minerals (and be scouts).

Idomis wrote:Spawn Larvae is mitigated heavily by the availability of resources. +4 Larvae is worthless if you aren't sitting on enough minerals. Similar limitations exist for Warp-In (cooldown) and Reactors (same as Zerg, actually). It's no advantage for Zerg to be able to produce 7 Ultras at once, as in ideal conditions (what we plan and theorycraft for), you've efficiently used all your minerals already.

Besides Tomer's point two posts above this, "what we plan and theorycraft for" isn't necessarily what always happens. I don't know how often macro would be left behind in a pro match, probably very rarely and only under intense battle, but in games with normal people, it could definitely come in handy. I know I'd use it to get a boost on rebuilding my army after a major battle where I was too busy managing the battle to bother with building units. And, you all seem to act like Spawn Larva can only be used when there are already 3 larvae there. Even in pro matches, an extra 4 larva could be useful. It'd be like another hatchery. Maybe not quite as useful as a whole hatch, but useful nonetheless.

I agree with Tiger's statements and he has proven many good points as he always does, but here is my issue.

Yes, the zerg does get extra larva with the queen and I agree the zerg player did not use his macro effectively at all. He should of moved quicker with it and had a 2nd expansion up and running awhile ago. Plus he didn't make enough drones either. This seems to be an issue that pops up on BR2 as well. Here is the fact about protoss.

The fact is that towards the end of the battle the protoss player had only 7 more probes then the zerg player and the e-sports guy stated "Kim is doubling the amount of resources than the zerg player." Those are not exact quotes, but we get the point, yes?

The fact that an obelisk can be built at the main and an expansion with a 20% increase on both minning facilities will mean A LOT more minerals. So the fact is, once again, he only had 7 more probes and he was doubling the zerg's mineral intake.

That is the issue at hand or am I overlooking something? I am just stating that one fact and that is what concerns mean.

@ AUDIE,

The 20% increase is only temporary, not like a permanent aura. And even if I believe you know this you make it sound as if it gave 20% permanently.

I don't know the details of its duration, cost and cooldown. I don't know if the cooldown is longer than the duration, but due to the energy cost the Protoss player need more than one Dark Pylon to get 20% increase kind of permanently.. But even so it does require attention from the player, thus giving him less time to do other things like controlling units in battle. Expansions with additional Dark Obelisks will require even additional attention.

I recall reading both blue and regular posts that say that the Probes with the gathering buff on gather 6 minerals while the mineral cluster only loose 5 of its minerals, thus making it that each mineral cluster automatically has 20% more minerals.. If the clusters have 1500 like in the original this means that it'll have 1800 minerals instead which is quite a lot. If this is true then this is the only thing that I actually find making it stronger than the other races equivalent.

Really beating a dead horse here, but here's 1 more point that hasn't been touched yet.

The Obelisk is an immoblie (ovbiously) building. This means that once the base is mined out, it's basically useless. This also means that if you build it by a mineral patch (which you most likely would), you lose 2 of it's 3 useful abilities unless you're fighting all of your fights right by that base. It's kind of like having the shield battery from SC1, but instead of building it at the front of your base by some cannons, you have to put it by your workers. So this is useful for defending small expansions, of course, but the Obelisk(s) at your main base will bascially almost never use 2 of their 3 available abilities.

Meanwhile, the spawn larva ability is also just 1 of 3 abilities that the Queen has, but the Queen is a unit. It can spawn larva and then go on to defend your base, attack, take a nap, or do whatever you want it to. You have so much more freedom this way. You can spawn larva and walk over to the next base and spawn some more. And if a base is mined out, you can still spawn larva there for military units, there's no "wasted" buildings that are now just standing there.

Undifty wrote:The 20% increase is only temporary, not like a permanent aura. And even if I believe you know this you make it sound as if it gave 20% permanently.

...

If the clusters have 1500 like in the original this means that it'll have 1800 minerals instead which is quite a lot.

Regardless of whether that "reduce 5, take 6" mechanic is correct (I don't recall hearing anything from a blue saying that's right or specifically refuting it), you are contradicting yourself here. It's only temporary, so it's really not like 1800 min from each patch, it's something between 1500 and 1800, maybe 1600.
Also, that's a good point Tomer brings up. The Queen and Larva are very versatile, while the Obelisk is usually single-purpose: either minerals, which is temporary, or troop support, which kills its ability (unless at an expansion) to help with minerals.

Tiger0211 wrote:

Undifty wrote:The 20% increase is only temporary, not like a permanent aura. And even if I believe you know this you make it sound as if it gave 20% permanently.

...

If the clusters have 1500 like in the original this means that it'll have 1800 minerals instead which is quite a lot.

Regardless of whether that "reduce 5, take 6" mechanic is correct (I don't recall hearing anything from a blue saying that's right or specifically refuting it), you are contradicting yourself here. It's only temporary, so it's really not like 1800 min from each patch, it's something between 1500 and 1800, maybe 1600.
Also, that's a good point Tomer brings up. The Queen and Larva are very versatile, while the Obelisk is usually single-purpose: either minerals, which is temporary, or troop support, which kills its ability (unless at an expansion) to help with minerals.

So are you saying Tiger that in your opinion the Obelisk isn't to powerful? To use the additonal larva you need more resources. Whats the point in having them if you do not have the income for the extra larva to be morphed into something?

Again, in simply terms, do you think the obelisk is too powerful, Tiger?

Undifty wrote:

PiF wrote:This is the best Battle Report so far if you ask me. I'm very happy with how the game is coming so far. There is just 1 thing bothering me - The Colossus. It was totally useless in the previous B.Reports (couldn't even kill an SCV). And since it is designed as an anti-zerg unit I don't really see it doing that much when you hit it with a Neural Parasite (which seems to be a lower-tier tech than the Colossus himself)

So... WHAT is the point of wasting tons of resourses on slow,weak and mind controllable (in 1 word - useless) units like the Colossi? Discuss please...

Oneshotting AUDIE's marines?

Too bad Terran goes MECH vs Protoss and you don't see any marines

AUDIE wrote:So are you saying Tiger that in your opinion the Obelisk isn't to powerful? To use the additonal larva you need more resources. Whats the point in having them if you do not have the income for the extra larva to be morphed into something?

Again, in simply terms, do you think the obelisk is too powerful, Tiger?

I really can't say that I know, but in my opinion, no it's not too powerful. I've just been trying to point out what facts are known.

Tiger0211 wrote:

AUDIE wrote:So are you saying Tiger that in your opinion the Obelisk isn't to powerful? To use the additonal larva you need more resources. Whats the point in having them if you do not have the income for the extra larva to be morphed into something?

Again, in simply terms, do you think the obelisk is too powerful, Tiger?

I really can't say that I know, but in my opinion, no it's not too powerful. I've just been trying to point out what facts are known.

Well I hope you are right, but we cannot see till beta.

PiF, you said terran goes mech vs protoss and this is correct, but did you see battle report 2? It was mostly maraduers and some hellions.

I bet this has changed though do to the colossus's updates. Marines and maraduers may not last so long now. We haven't seen mech in action though, I wonder how effective it is.

david kim is awsome!!!! there were a couple times i thought he was going to die but he amazingly pulled through and won david kim is starcraft god bow before him (except you korea)

terransftw wrote:david kim is awsome!!!! there were a couple times i thought he was going to die but he amazingly pulled through and won david kim is starcraft god bow before him (except you korea)

You forget America makes this crack addict game, so in a sense it's bow to us

Tiger0211 wrote:Besides Tomer's point two posts above this, "what we plan and theorycraft for" isn't necessarily what always happens.

Except that in this case, what we plan and theorycraft does happen to all Zerg. There is no sitting on resources (the only exception is while waiting for a tech building to complete so you can unload real fast). If a Zerg finds himself sitting on extra with no teching/unit building to do, he builds another Hatchery. It's not an option. Rather than let the issue compound itself, you prepare for the next time it occurs and all successive occurrences. And since we can't expect to be able to rely on Spawn Larvae every time we do a production cycle (0sz, 9sz, 8sh, etc.), we have to have enough Hatcheries to produce our units without it. Once that Hatch is complete, we're back to not having to rely on an intermittent ability. And since extra Hatches are never bad ideas (base resilience, quicker recovery, etc.), the list of reasons to rely on Spawn Larvae when you will have enough Hatches to cover your Larvae needs at any point in the game becomes mighty tiny.

Tiger0211 wrote:I don't know how often macro would be left behind in a pro match, probably very rarely and only under intense battle, but in games with normal people, it could definitely come in handy. I know I'd use it to get a boost on rebuilding my army after a major battle where I was too busy managing the battle to bother with building units. And, you all seem to act like Spawn Larva can only be used when there are already 3 larvae there. Even in pro matches, an extra 4 larva could be useful. It'd be like another hatchery. Maybe not quite as useful as a whole hatch, but useful nonetheless.

So with the above in mind, it would be useful after a battle where I lost a Hatchery and don't have enough larvae to produce all the requisite units. That's the only viable answer thus far to the question of where I'm supposed to get extra resources to produce all these extra units. In this one case, my limited resource is larvae.

Now, I'm not saying it will NEVER, EVER happen that you'd need extra Larvae on the fly. But Spawn Larvae doesn't even come close to the usefulness of T&P's macro mechanics.

Idomis wrote:Now, I'm not saying it will NEVER, EVER happen that you'd need extra Larvae on the fly. But Spawn Larvae doesn't even come close to the usefulness of T&P's macro mechanics.

I think you're only looking at very early and very late game, and ignoring much of what happens in between. Your 2 complaints against Spawn Larva have been that you either can't afford to spawn the 4 extra units, or that you have enough Hatcheries that you don't even need it. But what about the mid game? You still haven't really responded to Spawn Larva's tremendous help in bringing a new expansion up to speed much faster than an Obelisk. Nor the fact that the Obelisk is a waste of 150 minerals once the base is mined out. Nor the fact that you basically have to choose between Proton Charge and its 2 other abilities, since they will rarely be used in the same area.

Undifty wrote:The 20% increase is only temporary, not like a permanent aura. And even if I believe you know this you make it sound as if it gave 20% permanently.

It is permanent if you have enough Obelisks to maintain the buff. And what cost is too high for effectively permanent +20% mining speed? 150 minerals? 300? 450? I can't see it being higher than 450/base.

AUDIE wrote:The fact that an obelisk can be built at the main and an expansion with a 20% increase on both minning facilities will mean A LOT more minerals. So the fact is, once again, he only had 7 more probes and he was doubling the zerg's mineral intake.

That's a good point. Unit costs don't scale with the number of mining bases you have, so while you may only be at +20% mining intake at equal bases at a given time, if that 20% is 3 bases worth, that's a lot of extra minerals and a lot of extra units. Doesn't that just compound the problem come end-game? While we may be matched at Income/EffectivePower (the incomes may vary greatly because Zerg tends to need more bases to remain equal in Power), once you start tipping the income scale towards P, things get spooky. Eventually we might be mining at EFFECTIVELY a similar number of bases (maybe 4-3 Zerg-Protoss bases ends up being 4-3.6). You can pump the mass of extra minerals you didn't need to remain competitive into Zealots or something.

Tomer wrote:You still haven't really responded to Spawn Larva's tremendous help in bringing a new expansion up to speed much faster than an Obelisk.

Maynard Transfer. You produced many of the Drones that you need slowly over time and had them mining inefficiently until your new Hatchery was done. Yes, once you get over there, it could be useful to pop out some more Drones really quickly if the following conditions are met:

• You have no need for other units from those Queen Larvae (ie. Early defenses)
• You can spare a Queen to go running with your Maynard Transfer (I think producing a new Queen on-site would be a waste of the local Larvae that you're trying to get Drones out of, but that's up to cost/time/etc.).
  
  The equation would look something like ( -QueenCostOverDrone -MineralsLosttoNotHaving1st/2nd/ETC.DronesDependingonQueenProductionTime = +3 overall Drones +AnyExtraMineralsFromTheseOtherwiseUnattainableWithoutQueen ).
  Now, you might want the Queen there in the future, so you may need to produce one anyways.
  
  Is this minor mineral gain, however, really on-par with +20% permanent mineral intake?

And this is all hoping the expansion doesn't end up being a loss. Is the Queen cheap enough to be a fair sacrifice if you're caught early at a fresh base? Probably, but I'll throw it out there.

Tomer wrote:Nor the fact that the Obelisk is a waste of 150 minerals once the base is mined out. Nor the fact that you basically have to choose between Proton Charge and its 2 other abilities, since they will rarely be used in the same area.

Well, I think -150 minerals now for 20% faster minerals for the duration of the patch's life is worth it. Plus, worker harassment happens and a few Regens might be what you need mid-battle to save your already-sturdy worker line from destruction (which is worth way more than what you'd get out of Proton Charge over the time it would take to produce more Probes) - or an extra Psi Storm to kick my Muta's butts.

And hey, as long as we're here, what's up with Obelisk Shield Regen affecting all units in an area? Protoss shields already regen ridiculously fast out of combat and Protoss is possessed of amazing disengage mechanics (Blink, freakin' Force Field, Phase Shift, Anti-Grav, and Hallucination and risk-free Warp-In to just scare the crap out of people). P definitely needs AoE health potions on top of that pile! It's only by the mercy of some higher power that they aren't Pylons anymore.

the reason for the extra sheild regan is cause thats all they got, they can never be at full power again once they get through the sheild, so really it is just a way to get on top again. otherwise they might never live through as many battles as they could. with ALL that regan

Quick thing I read from an article on teamliquid (the guy played the game for a full 2 days)

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... c_id=96528

Quote:Zerg vs Protoss

I mentioned how different Zerg plays now compared to Broodwar because of the Queen. Reconsider this larvae mechanic: In Starcraft, Zerg has one additional resource to manage, larvae. You want to build your hatchery first for the additional larvae. Of course more larvae comes at a price as each hatchery is 300 minerals and a drone gone.
Now, in SC2, with the Queen mechanic, you essentially get twice as many larvae per hatchery. Now the Queen costs 150 minerals, but that is a one time cost. And you can skip a lot of lings because of that, since Queen and lings effectively defend against P or T rushes. This means you save literally hundreds of minerals in the early game if you stay at 2 hatcheries and larvae macro properly. And those minerals can be reinvested in drones. The effect is dramatic, especially vs Protoss. In the build we had, forge first was not viable. Speed zerglings and roaches and/or banelings were too strong too quickly. Two gate pressure is actually easily defended after all with a Queen in the mix. This means Zerg can safely expand, Protoss can not. Zerg can skip lings and pump drones at a insane rate early in the game, and then switch to a booming zergling/roach production, which just overpowers Protoss.

Against the end of the second day Protoss tried to find a way to counter this, but there was none in this build. I watched Protoss there do some truly impressive force field micro tricks, but they were just hopelessly overwhelmed by the masses of lings and roaches. You can't stop the Zerg from expanding, and the masses of roaches and zerglings hit before the higher tech units like DT, storm or colossus are available. I mean you could probably build 10 cannons, but then Zerg just expands again. Against the end this was probably the most obvious imbalance in the build.

Now I am not saying I don't like this queen mechanic, not at all, I love it. But it shows that balancing it will be very tough. And we just timed hatches and queens however we felt like, with some proper research you could surely optimise this to get safe Zerg openings that would kick start your economy even better. The whole larvae mechanic made Zerg a whole lot more interesting.

I heard Zerg is weakest in Blizzard inhouse testing, and I am wondering whether they are really exploring the potential of the queen (they are not judging from BR#3).

Since every competitive game later that weekend ended in Protoss being overrun it's hard to judge how they do in a "fair" fight.

Nice find Jaydin, confirms most of what I was saying

this is the stuff betas are good for - internal testing can only go so far. You'll never find out all the bugs and tricks and tactics by the limited experience of a select group. Open this up to the community at large, people are going to be tweaking and manipulating units finding the best thing possible ^_^. I really think (especially according to the battle reports) that the queens as *well* as the creep speed increase have been sorely overlooked.